Hi Ruth! Thank you for developing and sharing your approach to fitting pants.
I will take you up on your offer and ask some inter-related questions
What gives you enough sitting room in pants?
Do fat people or certain body shapes need more/different ease and shaping to accommodate the lengthening along the back of the body that happens when we sit (because, eg, fat compresses/changes shape more than muscle when sitting, or because the tilt of your pelvis changes, and you’ve fit that tilt while standing).
When pants are fitted well (and using the design intent) how much should the back waistband pull down when you’re seated?
Reasons for my questions:
- I’ve noticed cashmarette, and who design for larger sizes, suggests using seated hip measurement to choose a pant size (and an early version of your method mentioned seated hip).
- I’ve also noticed they add elastic (often in clever ways) so that it “expands with you as you sit down”.
- I am struggling to fit my first toile (for my first ever pair of woven pants, the Arden pants) it looks good when standing, but when sitting the waist band pulls down a lot (at least 2”). When I try lowering the back crotch 2”, it doesn’t seem like the extra ease then moves with my body as I sit. This could be poor fabric choice for the toile and waistband on my part (the old bed sheet I used is drapy and thin)
Great questions! Because this is a comment section I cannot post any diagrams or photos and some of this deserves answering in more detail but in short:
What gives you enough sitting room in pants? Positive ease which can come from either horizontal or vertical direction (if using non-stretch fabrics) and also the movement of the garment itself relative to the body (unless it is super tightly fitted).
When we look at the category "fat" fashion usually defines this by circumference. However we have toned big circumference, softer big circumference, young and old big circumference, big and small butt big circumference etc and all these are different body types that sit differently so there is no single rule here, just a range of variability that is a human range. The numbers are larger because the starting circumference is larger but not proportionally larger than "regular" because human is human.
However, there is a pants fitting issue that is very relevant to circumferences in the fat category. So much so that I am thinking of developing an online pants fitting class specifically for plus sizes. The issue is not confined to plus size but is most likely to be encountered by individuals in this category.
And the reason I mention this is because it relates to the "pulling at back when sitting down". One way you can determine this is if you are pulling up the toile and there is excess fabric but you cannot pull it up further without giving yourself a wedgie or you find that even though the pants look good, there is a persistent tug at center back that is slightly uncomfortable. This is a sign that the center is out of balance with the sides and the overall crotch distance needs less horizontal and more vertical, i.e. this needs the crotch curve from a smaller size. This part of the original TDCO article is online and not in the magazine because of space considerations and I have some IG posts that show how this works. Obviously I do not know if this is the issue you are encountering but it does sound as though it might be.
Excellent point regarding everybody’s circumferences behave differently because of a variety of factors.
Re crotch curve and sitting:
Ooo. Fascinating. And that makes sense to me given the other single leg pant toile I’ve made (that I decided not to make into a pair of pants). For that toile I was using a woven joggers pattern drafted to my measurements by apostrophe patterns. For reasons I won’t go into I tried two versions, the first with a much longer rear crotch extension and shorter rear crotch depth (by which I mean the vertical height from the crotch to the waistband), the second version had the same rise (rear crotch curve measurement) but shorter crotch extension and taller crotch depth. These changes changed the ease in the thigh.
I had the same problem with the first version (long CE) as I am now with the Arden pants when I sit down, but it was more extreme. The second version was much better when it came to sitting, but there were other problems with the fit through the leg and I just decided to try the Arden instead.
Ps, I’d love a plus-sized pant fitting class! But speaking as someone in Australia… an option that was somewhat time zone agnostic would be appreciated.
This brings up more issues, thank you! Re the apostrophe pattern, I just looked it up and on the website it says it is created from measurements to fit perfectly. If it does not, that would suggest either the measurements are not correct or the way the draft is created is not adequate (or both). It is undoubtedly true that a person's measurements can vary depending on whether it is AM or PM etc however a good design/draft should understand the intrinsic variation of the human body. So I doubt that this is an issue of the measurements not being correct. A draft from measurements is a formula and the formulas for drafting pants are very approximate. With knits, there is more of a fudge factor that is not possible with woven fabrics. This is one of the reasons I do not think a self-drafted pattern is a good place to learn pants fitting.
Re: "These changes changed the ease in the thigh" YES it is a balance between the depth of the body from front to back and the side seam and the vertical position of the crotch point that controls the thigh circumference of the pant. So it is a matter of being able to experiment to find the sweet spot that is consistent with both the body and the aesthetic you are aiming for.
HI Ruth, yes I came to the conclusion that the draft for the Apostrophe patterns did not work for me, at least in wovens. The major indication was that when I entered my carefully measured body measurements (including my thigh measurement), and chose the "slim fit" option and woven fabric, the thigh of the generated pattern (measured 5 cm below the crotch) was negative relative to my thigh measurment. I cut out the "lounge" fit (which at least had 5 cm of ease in the thigh) but I wouldn't call that "lounge".
However, I think their drafting for knit fabrics is reasonable - as indicated by lots of happy customers with a variety of body shapes and sizes. I have made three pairs of knit leggings/pants out of their patterns - one fits really well (ironically the one I made first!), one fits quite well, and one needed some major adjustment and is currently sitting in time out.
Anyway - hopeful the Arden pants once I finish TDCO and sew them can be the first pair of woven pants I've owned and worn in over a decade. We shall see! Thank you for your help and looking forward to future articles.
Hi Ruth! Thank you for developing and sharing your approach to fitting pants.
I will take you up on your offer and ask some inter-related questions
What gives you enough sitting room in pants?
Do fat people or certain body shapes need more/different ease and shaping to accommodate the lengthening along the back of the body that happens when we sit (because, eg, fat compresses/changes shape more than muscle when sitting, or because the tilt of your pelvis changes, and you’ve fit that tilt while standing).
When pants are fitted well (and using the design intent) how much should the back waistband pull down when you’re seated?
Reasons for my questions:
- I’ve noticed cashmarette, and who design for larger sizes, suggests using seated hip measurement to choose a pant size (and an early version of your method mentioned seated hip).
- I’ve also noticed they add elastic (often in clever ways) so that it “expands with you as you sit down”.
- I am struggling to fit my first toile (for my first ever pair of woven pants, the Arden pants) it looks good when standing, but when sitting the waist band pulls down a lot (at least 2”). When I try lowering the back crotch 2”, it doesn’t seem like the extra ease then moves with my body as I sit. This could be poor fabric choice for the toile and waistband on my part (the old bed sheet I used is drapy and thin)
Great questions! Because this is a comment section I cannot post any diagrams or photos and some of this deserves answering in more detail but in short:
What gives you enough sitting room in pants? Positive ease which can come from either horizontal or vertical direction (if using non-stretch fabrics) and also the movement of the garment itself relative to the body (unless it is super tightly fitted).
When we look at the category "fat" fashion usually defines this by circumference. However we have toned big circumference, softer big circumference, young and old big circumference, big and small butt big circumference etc and all these are different body types that sit differently so there is no single rule here, just a range of variability that is a human range. The numbers are larger because the starting circumference is larger but not proportionally larger than "regular" because human is human.
However, there is a pants fitting issue that is very relevant to circumferences in the fat category. So much so that I am thinking of developing an online pants fitting class specifically for plus sizes. The issue is not confined to plus size but is most likely to be encountered by individuals in this category.
And the reason I mention this is because it relates to the "pulling at back when sitting down". One way you can determine this is if you are pulling up the toile and there is excess fabric but you cannot pull it up further without giving yourself a wedgie or you find that even though the pants look good, there is a persistent tug at center back that is slightly uncomfortable. This is a sign that the center is out of balance with the sides and the overall crotch distance needs less horizontal and more vertical, i.e. this needs the crotch curve from a smaller size. This part of the original TDCO article is online and not in the magazine because of space considerations and I have some IG posts that show how this works. Obviously I do not know if this is the issue you are encountering but it does sound as though it might be.
Excellent point regarding everybody’s circumferences behave differently because of a variety of factors.
Re crotch curve and sitting:
Ooo. Fascinating. And that makes sense to me given the other single leg pant toile I’ve made (that I decided not to make into a pair of pants). For that toile I was using a woven joggers pattern drafted to my measurements by apostrophe patterns. For reasons I won’t go into I tried two versions, the first with a much longer rear crotch extension and shorter rear crotch depth (by which I mean the vertical height from the crotch to the waistband), the second version had the same rise (rear crotch curve measurement) but shorter crotch extension and taller crotch depth. These changes changed the ease in the thigh.
I had the same problem with the first version (long CE) as I am now with the Arden pants when I sit down, but it was more extreme. The second version was much better when it came to sitting, but there were other problems with the fit through the leg and I just decided to try the Arden instead.
Ps, I’d love a plus-sized pant fitting class! But speaking as someone in Australia… an option that was somewhat time zone agnostic would be appreciated.
This brings up more issues, thank you! Re the apostrophe pattern, I just looked it up and on the website it says it is created from measurements to fit perfectly. If it does not, that would suggest either the measurements are not correct or the way the draft is created is not adequate (or both). It is undoubtedly true that a person's measurements can vary depending on whether it is AM or PM etc however a good design/draft should understand the intrinsic variation of the human body. So I doubt that this is an issue of the measurements not being correct. A draft from measurements is a formula and the formulas for drafting pants are very approximate. With knits, there is more of a fudge factor that is not possible with woven fabrics. This is one of the reasons I do not think a self-drafted pattern is a good place to learn pants fitting.
Re: "These changes changed the ease in the thigh" YES it is a balance between the depth of the body from front to back and the side seam and the vertical position of the crotch point that controls the thigh circumference of the pant. So it is a matter of being able to experiment to find the sweet spot that is consistent with both the body and the aesthetic you are aiming for.
HI Ruth, yes I came to the conclusion that the draft for the Apostrophe patterns did not work for me, at least in wovens. The major indication was that when I entered my carefully measured body measurements (including my thigh measurement), and chose the "slim fit" option and woven fabric, the thigh of the generated pattern (measured 5 cm below the crotch) was negative relative to my thigh measurment. I cut out the "lounge" fit (which at least had 5 cm of ease in the thigh) but I wouldn't call that "lounge".
However, I think their drafting for knit fabrics is reasonable - as indicated by lots of happy customers with a variety of body shapes and sizes. I have made three pairs of knit leggings/pants out of their patterns - one fits really well (ironically the one I made first!), one fits quite well, and one needed some major adjustment and is currently sitting in time out.
Anyway - hopeful the Arden pants once I finish TDCO and sew them can be the first pair of woven pants I've owned and worn in over a decade. We shall see! Thank you for your help and looking forward to future articles.
Love this. No nonsense, straight forward advice.
Thank you so much!